Phil Murphy – New Jersey Governor

Mark Freda: Governor Murphy, thanks for joining us today.

Governor Phil Murphy: Mark, good to see you, pal. You and I go way back, so it’s nice to be back in business with you. It’s good to be here with you.

Mark Freda: So excellent. Let me ask you this one. When did you first decide that you wanted to run for governor of New Jersey?

Governor Phil Murphy: So, a friend of ours—I was our ambassador in Germany—and a friend of ours visited us, a Jersey guy. And he said, in the spring or early summer of 2013—and this is the only conversation I ever had about it, either before or for a while after it—he said, “You know, Chris Christie’s gonna win reelection handily. And assuming that I’m right, it’s gonna be wide open for both parties and it’s hard to get someone from the same party to succeed for a third term.”

What we just saw with Mikie Sherrill is not a natural occurrence. And so that was like a seed, but it wasn’t like, “Okay, I’m gonna run for governor.” We then came back, we got back with our family. It took the rest of 2013 to get reintegrated back into Jersey. And I’d say probably the end of that year, early 2014, we started looking at the state—we being my wife and I in particular. And it was less a political look than: What does New Jersey need?

You know, I would argue that it was pretty broken at that point. So we asked, “This is what it needs, and this is what I, and we, bring to the table. How good a fit was that?” So we spent a good amount of time doing that. We formed a think tank, but it was probably a year, year and a half. And then we started saying, “Okay, let’s have some serious political conversations and see whether or not there’s a lane here.” And early on there didn’t look like there was much of a lane, I have to say. So I’d say, you know, first it ever came up late spring, early summer 2013. Didn’t really start thinking about it earnestly until probably 2014, declared in May of 2016, and got elected in 2017.

Mark Freda: So you used the think tank. Did you have specific reasons in your mind as to, “Well, here’s why I, Phil Murphy, should run for governor”?

Governor Phil Murphy: So the theory that we tested was that this was first and foremost an economic challenge. That it was broken, that it wasn’t growing, it wasn’t fair. And the state, which used to be a paragon of responsibility—you know, “Let’s look at New Jersey ’cause they do things the right way”—we had lost our way, by the way, on both sides of the aisle, in fairness.

So the theory was that having been on Wall Street—as you know, you and I were both there—having dealt with folks at a high level, whether it was clients or as an ambassador in my case in Germany; that combination, plus being brought up in a progressive family (middle class on a good day; my dad didn’t get out of high school, my mom got a high school degree and that was it)… the theory we tested was: Was that what the state needed?

I would argue with hindsight that we are far from perfect, we’re far from having gotten everything done, but we were largely right on that thesis.

Mark Freda: So are you happy that you were able to serve two terms as governor?

Governor Phil Murphy: Oh, hugely, yeah. Hugely. I mean, it would’ve been crushing to not win a second term with so much left to accomplish. Having said that, on the other side of it, I’m a big believer in term limits. I think there’s a time where you pass the baton and it’s almost unburdening. When you get reelected with a two-term limit as New Jersey has, I think there’s a lot to be said for that.

So the bad news is even with two terms, you don’t get everything done that you want to get done. The good news is there’s a time to pass the baton. There’s a time to turn the page. To give somebody else a shot on the one hand, and on my side of things, to take a break and decompress, recharge, and then figure out where we go from here.

Mark Freda: So do you have a greatest accomplishment, do you think, in your two terms?

Governor Phil Murphy: I mean, I don’t know. I haven’t thought a lot about the legacy thing I mentioned. I alluded to this. If you look at our rhetoric and our promises over the years, we sort of ran and governed on a three-legged stool: Stronger (grow the economy, more jobs), Fairer (shrink inequities, not entirely, but mostly across racial lines), and then be Responsible again. Do the stuff you said you’d do. Make your pension payment, fully fund public schools, fully fund property tax programs, relief programs. Get the rating agencies to buy into that.

And I won’t bore you with the details, but there’s a lot of progress that we’ve made on each of those three legs. I’m particularly proud of the fact that we are who we said we would be. A lot of folks who run for office in this line of business say one thing on the trail and do a different thing when they get in there. We haven’t done that. Basically, I always say from the get-go, I’m a proud progressive and a cold-blooded capitalist. That’s who I am. And whether you like it or not, that’s who we’ve been.

I mean, getting the World Cup final is probably on the list. Getting a Greenway started, which is gonna be eight or nine times the distance of the High Line in New York—that’s pretty cool. I mean, there’s a lot of cool things that I think we’ve done. We had to live through COVID, right? Which was an incredibly trying time for our state. You know, 35,000 lost lives is unbelievable… could have been a lot worse. So there’s a lot with eight years of living through a lot of stuff, some of which I could have predicted, a lot of which, starting with the pandemic, I could not have.

Mark Freda: Hey, we’re just along for the ride. You don’t know where life’s gonna take you. So a little slightly different, but a similar question: Out of everything that you’ve accomplished, is there something that’s like a favorite accomplishment? I mean, you just reeled off a whole number of things and I think most people in the state are going to agree that you’ve accomplished quite a lot. But is there something that’s maybe like, “Boy, I really like this”?

Governor Phil Murphy: Well, I’m a big soccer guy, so getting the World Cup final, which will be watched by 3 to 4 billion people—most watched event in human history, not even just sporting event—that’s gotta be on there.

We promised that we would reboot the innovation economy because that’s who we are as a state. You know, I think whether you’re an individual like you and I are, or a mayor or a governor or a CEO, you gotta wake up in the morning, look in the mirror and be honest with yourself. What am I? What am I not? What can I be? What can I not be? And when I look in the mirror… this goes back to the think tank way before we ever thought about running. A big chunk of that was when I look in the mirror, I see an innovation economy. I wish I saw cars, trucks, chemicals—those are in our past. But I do see biopharma, life science, tech, telecom, FinTech, sports tech, and increasingly generative artificial intelligence.

But specifically, which is getting to a favorite, is film, television, and digital. Film was invented in the state. The movie industry actually started in Fort Lee, New Jersey. We had long lost our way. We’re back. We are globally significant in that business. We’ve got Netflix building a 300-acre campus in Monmouth County near where we live. You’ve got Lionsgate, we’re gonna put a shovel in the ground in Newark. You’ve got 1888 Studios in Bayonne that just attracted Paramount Pictures for a 10-year, 250,000-square-foot lease.

I’m not sure when this actually airs, but I’m going December 2nd. So I will have gone and hopefully come back in one piece. We’re going to do our last economic mission: Northern California for generative AI and tech, and then we’re going to the south to keep talking to more film studios. So that element of the innovation economy… if you sort of said what’s a cool thing that you’ve done or a favorite thing, that would certainly be high on the list.

Mark Freda: Yeah. It’s an impressive list. Do you have… there’s not a lot of time left in the term, but do you have a couple of things that you’re hoping to accomplish before the last day?

Governor Phil Murphy: Yeah, I mean, we’ve done these strategic innovation centers, which are directed in particular at the startup economy, so we’re gonna continue to bear down on that. Maybe get another one done before we leave. I mentioned going out, pitching AI and film.

There are some legislative priorities that we’re really focused on. I’d love to see a bell-to-bell ban of cell phones. So the student comes in the morning, puts the phone into a secure pouch or locker, and then they pick it up at three o’clock in the afternoon. I’ve become a huge disciple of that. There are some housing bills I’d love to see get across the goal line ’cause we continue to suffer from a paucity of affordable housing. Some safety and security steps we’d like to see taken.

Some non-legislative items… I’ll tell you too, the meeting we’re gonna have right after this one is another meeting on our clemency initiative. We’ve put a historic number of pardons and commutations out there. We wanna do more. Folks deserve a second chance. We want to continue as a state to earn our reputation as the “state for second chances.”

Another one that is non-legislative, that we care deeply about, is continuing to retire medical debt. We’re able to do that literally for pennies on the dollar. You literally… we just announced a tranche, I think last week. I think we deployed $2 million and retired $200 million in medical debt. This debt trades in the secondary markets for pennies on the dollar. So we’re hoping that we get another 3, 4, 5 tranches of that directed.

So clemency, medical debt… overwhelmingly focused on that fairness element, that fairness leg to the stool. Not entirely persons of color, but overwhelmingly so, and overwhelmingly folks who are underserved or up against it in terms of their bills and affordability. So that’ll give you a little bit of a sense. A big priority is to give Mikie Sherrill and Dale Caldwell a really good glide path into office and have as good a transition as humanly possible. Those are all items that we’ve got a little over two months to do a fair amount of stuff.

Mark Freda: Yeah. Good luck.

Governor Phil Murphy: Thank you.

Mark Freda: Any idea how many countries you visited promoting New Jersey? I mean, you’ve done a lot of traveling.

Governor Phil Murphy: Yeah, I could tell you exactly. We did 14 international missions. Two of them were to India. We’ve been to Italy several times that I’m not counting ’cause we didn’t do anything really terribly official. We’ve been to Israel more than once, but really only once as a real economic mission.

And New Jersey sells. You know this being in Princeton, which has got an international presence and reputation. New Jersey sells incredibly well globally. In fact, we call ourselves the “World’s State.” So to give you an idea: Germany, where I was our ambassador, was our first stop. Israel. India twice. To give you an idea of the opportunity we see there—not just the breadth of the South Asian community, but the amount of jobs and investment that not only we have, but we still have as opportunity. All these missions have jobs and investment government-to-government, usually at very high levels. Usually a lot of higher ed memorandums of understanding, exchange research projects, and then fourthly, cultural stuff.

So, Germany, Israel, India twice, Ireland of course. France for kind of a mini shot. Canada, Mexico, literally last week, very successfully. South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates. Those are the 14. In some respects very similar and in some respects each very different than the other. All successful. Again, Jersey is a known brand commodity and it sells really well around the world.

Mark Freda: Yeah, it’s an impressive list. So, you’ve hosted many, many events in your time as governor. Is there a favorite event or a favorite type of event?

Governor Phil Murphy: I’ll tell you one tonight, which is an important one. We have a CEO council that we established during the pandemic. Then it was focused on recovering from the pandemic. And since then, the past several years, it’s been a great, very exclusive, probably 12 or 13 chief executives of the biggest companies in New Jersey. We have a quarterly gathering. Tonight is my hosting the last hurrah. By the way, with Governor-elect Sherrill—she’s committed that this would go on. That’ll be a really good discussion about the economy in particular.

But the things that we love are at Drumthwacket, in your hometown of Princeton, which is the Governor’s mansion. We’ll do several things a month and then we’ll have sort of the monthly heritage event. So we’ll do a Diwali event we just did a couple of weeks ago. Wildly successful entertainment. Usually give out an award or a citation. I’ll say a few remarks. Tammy, my wife, will say a few. Again, some dance entertainment. I love that. We do another wild one for Pride every June, which we love. Black History Month, Hispanic Heritage Month, AAPI Celebration. So those are really, really cool. And of course, we host… we’re in the State House. We host folks through here all the time. The ones that we do for those monthly sort of heritage events are really cool.

Mark Freda: Yeah. You’re very inclusive.

Governor Phil Murphy: Yeah. We love it.

Mark Freda: So what’s the hardest part of being governor?

Governor Phil Murphy: Well, it’s a big responsibility. You’ve got a version… you and I have a similar chief executive role, and this is not… I’m not making a value statement on one’s better than the other, but it’s a very different reality than if you’re in a legislative body, which is also incredibly important and incredibly valuable. But it’s different. So, you know, and I know that you’re the boss and at the end of the day, the buck stops with you. You’ve got the ball. So in my case, for nine and a half million people, it’s typically gonna be the stuff that’s hard.

You know, I spoke to University Hospital chaplains earlier today and I was recounting a lot of good times at University Hospital, but passing through their emergency room when those two firefighters died at the port. Or when the police officer was murdered in Newark and my wife and Mayor Baraka and I were in there together with the family. COVID, we mentioned. I mean, so the tough parts are security issues, tragedies. Weather events are never terribly fun. And that includes, sadly, you know, we had an awful storm in President Biden’s first year as president which took 30 lives, mostly due to water. Mentioned the pandemic.

Some stuff drives you crazy, but… nobody died. You know, you’ll have some conversation with somebody and you wanna pull your hair out or there’s some… you know what it’s like. Somebody’s got a complaint that’s outta left field. But again, nobody died because of that. You may not like it, but you’ll live through that, right? But it’s the stuff that’s the heavier stuff that I think is the most difficult.

Mark Freda: So, on the other end of the spectrum, is there anything that you would say is the easiest or easier part of being governor?

Governor Phil Murphy: I mean, I don’t have a problem being with people. I don’t have a problem doing something like this or standing up in front of people. I almost became an actor, so I acted a lot in middle school, high school, and college. Thought about doing that as a career. I only say that because that chapter in my life, I think has led to largely—there’s always some exceptions—but I have like ice water flowing through my veins when it comes to standing up and delivering a State of the State address or something like that.

So, I’m not sure that’s easy, but more broadly, I like being with people. And I don’t think you can fake that. People can tell it’s real or it’s not. Either you like it or you don’t. We, Tammy and I, always… when I was our ambassador in Germany particularly, but also here in New Jersey, and looking at the American landscape, there’s always somebody out there where you look at them and say, “How did they pick this line of business? I don’t understand.” You know, there was somebody senior in Angela Merkel’s cabinet who’s a great guy, incredible talent. Elected politics? What? Hello? Made no sense. Having said that, he was really successful, so shows you what I know. But being with people, engaging with them, is stuff I love. And whether that’s easy, I’m not sure, but I love it. And maybe therefore it’s easy.

Mark Freda: Yeah. I agree. Maybe it’s not always easy, but I think it’s the best part. Talking to people, listening to people. So, do you have a typical day? I mean, I know you’re all over the state, so is there any typical day for you?

Governor Phil Murphy: Not really. I mean, I’ve got two offices. The big one is here in Trenton, in the State House. But there’s another one in Newark in the Gateway Complex that we use a lot. In fact, I’d say I’m probably in Newark as much as I am in Trenton. Obviously here for the official part of the job—giving a State of the State or a budget address or meeting with legislators, et cetera. So I’m in both of those places a lot. Travel a lot in the state. I don’t travel a lot outside of the state.

I was chair on two occasions of the Democratic Governors Association, so I would travel a fair amount around the country for that. I was chair of the National Governors Association, which is non-partisan. Traveled a fair amount for that. And we do these economic missions we talked about. So, you know, other than going away for Christmas, we’ve got the trip I mentioned in California to pitch New Jersey and then I’ve got one Washington hit to go to the bid for the World Cup. So we’ll find out what matches New Jersey gets at MetLife for our first five. And then we’re going down for one other National Governor Association, but mostly in the state. Travel all over the place.

Today, I’ll give you just an example of today. Started up—we live in Monmouth County—drove up to Newark, drove down to Trenton. We’ll drive over to Princeton to host the dinner I mentioned. And then late tonight, we’ll get home. Tomorrow rather, I’ll work from home and do literally, I think, 12 calls and/or Zooms back to back to back. We’re then gonna go into New York City for an American Council on Germany reception that we’re still very supportive of. And then I’ll end up at the Rutgers-Lehigh basketball game tomorrow.

I love sports. I love going to sporting events. I’ve made a particular point of making sure that I was in the South a lot. South Jersey, I think with good reason, has felt over the decades that they got underserved, underpaid attention to. And I’m proud of our track record of not just physically being there, but being there in the substantive ways, whether it’s transit or keeping the nuclear plants open, or Atlantic City matters or Camden matters.

So no typical day. I’d say four out of five days I’m in, for some of the day at least, either Trenton office or Newark office, and even those days typically moving around a fair amount.

Mark Freda: Yeah, I think it’s pretty impressive. Anybody that’s following you… you are just all over the state. It’s amazing.

Governor Phil Murphy: And by the way, I’m getting driven. Which means I’m working. Which is a huge asset. You know this, right? So the ability to sit there, be on a phone, read a memo, write a memo, read the paper… that is worth its weight in gold. So I will miss a lot of things, and that’ll be one of ’em.

Mark Freda: So with the governor’s election behind us, what do you see as the message from the voters in electing Mikie Sherrill?

Governor Phil Murphy: Yeah. Not just electing her, but electing her in a big way. So she won by about 13 percentage points. It reminds me of our first race where we won by about that. I think it was 14 and change. I think there are three takeaways at least that I would have.

Most importantly, at the top of the list, is people like what they saw. She’s incredibly impressive. Her Lieutenant Governor-elect Dale Caldwell is another star. They like what they saw—their resumes, their character, their values, and their vision. So that’s number one.

Number two, there’s a big amount—which we had the first time when we were in—there’s a big amount in Donald Trump’s America of “This isn’t what I signed up for.” Whether it’s the wrecking ball of the East Wing, food stamps drying up when the Trump administration volitionally did that sitting on $6 billion they chose not to spend, freezing the Gateway project which is 90,000 trades union jobs, indiscriminately going into warehouses and arresting people including folks with U.S. passports… I think there’s a big amount of, “You know what, this is not what I signed up for.” Including from moderate Republicans, independents, middle-of-the-road Democrats.

I think thirdly, selfishly—I’m not gonna tear my rotator cuff patting myself on the back—but I think there’s also a validation of what we’ve been doing the past eight years. It’s very rare that you staple a third term of the same party together. And I think it says something at least about where we’ve been taking the state for the past eight years. Mikie’s gotta be her own person and she’ll do some stuff very similar to what we’ve done and she’ll do some of her own stuff, as everyone does. But the broad arc, the broad direction of where we’ve been going and where she is portraying that they will take the state, is broadly in the same direction. And I think folks said, “You know what? I may not be happy about everything, but on the margin, that’s a direction I like.”

And thank God, by the way, big down-ballot wins as well. You know, pick up five assembly seats. In places that are not home games for Democrats. I was just reaching out to three folks who won in Parsippany, to pick a local race. Flipped the entire council and mayor. There was a lot of, not just Mikie and Dale up top, but there was a lot of movement down-ballot as well.

Mark Freda: It’s a good sign. Any set plans for you for the future yet? Or you’re just gonna relax for a little bit?

Governor Phil Murphy: I mean, set plans, but they’re personal. My wife gave me for my birthday a series of trips, so we’re gonna go off the radar for a little bit. We’re literally flying out the night that Mikie takes the oath to Europe for a little bit and we’re gonna go underground a little bit, recharge.

No idea what is beyond that, you know, haven’t really given it a whole lot of thought. One of the outcomes or realities with Donald Trump as president, particularly this time around—much more so than the first time—is it is all-consuming. I mean, every day there’s a different curveball coming at us. We either lead or join one to three suits a day, all of which I’ve gotta approve. And I would say, not necessarily happily, we sued the Biden administration as well… but one to three a day for nine months, you could do the math. There’s just one example of the volatility. Trying to figure out food stamps over SNAP the past couple of weeks was crazy. It’s not who we are.

And so why is that relevant? That’s probably sucked up all of my free time that I was otherwise thinking I could think, “What am I gonna do next?” I’ve had zero time to do that. But we’ll figure it out at some point. Public service has been really good to us. Tammy and I have loved it. I’ll be surprised if we’re not somehow still in the game somewhere, somehow. But no news to make. I wish I could—if I could make the news, why can’t I be with you, buddy?

Mark Freda: So, last question. Do you have any message to the residents of New Jersey as you prepare to leave office that you wanna share?

Governor Phil Murphy: I mean, overwhelming gratitude for the opportunity to lead the state for almost eight years. You pinch yourself. It’s the responsibility, the job, the position of a lifetime. And again, some days, some moments you wanna pull your hair out. But those pale in comparison to the enormous reward—admittedly responsibility—but it’s just been the eight years of a lifetime. And again, there’s always stuff you won’t miss, but I will miss serving the people.

I’ll give you one story. It’s emblematic of… I could tell dozens, hundreds, thousands. When I became governor, we inherited a lot of things that weren’t working, but one of them was the medical marijuana regime. It was really gummed up in terms of the maladies that were appropriate to pursue medical marijuana. There was stigma around physicians who wrote a script for medical marijuana. So we opened the system up almost immediately. I’m pretty sure it was an executive order that did it. I’m in… I think it was Tops Diner right after this happened. And a veteran walks up to me and just bursts out crying. And he tells me—because we added PTSD as one of the illnesses—it changed his life.

And I say that because not just for that blessed guy and thank him for his service to our country… you could see this in Princeton. When government works—when it’s a bill that works, if it’s an executive order that works, or maybe it’s just a speech or a gesture or a phone call—and there’s a line between A and B… A is what you did and B is the impact that it was felt by that individual. That just overwhelms me. That’s an incredible rewarding sort of sense and that I will miss enormously. But mostly gratitude, pal. Not just for having me on your show here, but gratitude to the people of New Jersey for allowing me to lead this great state for eight years.

Mark Freda: Well, Phil, I want to thank you for being with us and I just have to say thanks for your long leadership, your just all that you have done that is just so beneficial to this state and to the residents of this state. You’re gonna be missed, but at least things are passing into good hands.

Governor Phil Murphy: Yes. The baton is being passed to an incredibly talented somebody. I always ask the question, “Are they in this business for the right reasons?” And Mikie Sherrill and Dale Caldwell pass that test with flying colors.

Mark Freda: Great to see you. I’ll see you in Princeton.

Governor Phil Murphy: Yes, sir. Thank you.

Producer Ken Greenberg: Thank you for joining us for the 68th episode of the Princeton Podcast, sponsored by the Municipality of Princeton, and produced by the podcast production team at HG Media. Providing audio and video production services here in Princeton since 1999. If you enjoyed this episode of the Princeton Podcast, please share it with your friends. Visit our website at princetonpodcast.com and be sure to subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Audible, or wherever you get your podcasts.